colinmonk Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 shoes are needed, there MUST be steel toe capped asd you are not able to work in any of the spaces during production time or in any of the workshops without them.Just as a thought, if you are asked to purchase working shoes for a production course then you would probably be able to work out that they should be Steelies without being told, it is common sense . . . Just a view... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 not so, I know of many people that didnt and some new students that have not realised that they must be steelies, there was not any real rule about this until last year when a new Tech stage and HSE tutor joined. yes rachel, mentioning no names we know hes god... this is a point that its well worth pointing out as the lists of equipment required that are sent out to new students do not give many details and where they do are often wrong. as an add on I would say that anyone joining should try to get a leatherman or gerber, one of the most useful things you can have if you are in one of the production strands. (leather man and gerber are mentioned to avoid the great leatherman-gerber debate) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Robertson Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Hi again, I didn't want this to turn into a fight (I knew it would)University students have to pay a fortune on books, stationary, a computer (if not already own one) - so a pair of boots hardly seems unreasonable! University students are supplied a reading list, they are not forced to Buy the books. I'm sure that Central has a library. If you read a book that you like then you are within your rights to go and buy it, but you are not forced to buy books. I have informally spoke to S4T (scottish technical theatre training trust) and HSE today regarding this matter and they both quote the health and safety at work act sections 2,3 and 4. CSSD have a duty of care to all employees and students. If there was an accident and they had not supplied the correct safety equipment then they would be liable. As this is a safety issue, if found guilty then it could incur a jail sentence and an unlimited fine. If part of your degree states that you must attend a fit-up and you turn up without the correct PPE and it has not been supplied to you and they turn you away, then the powers that be are in breach of contract. I feel that the power of the students could come into play here. If you go to your course leader with these arguments then maybe they could supply boots. At the academy we supply basic steel toe capped boots, respirators and gauntlets. As these are health and safety equipment we do not consider these to be part of a tool kit. If you PM me I can put you in touch with the safety officer at S4T who can give you any other information that you may require. This is a serious issue for central, and one that I think they should be addressing. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Need Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 I feel that the power of the students could come into play here. If you go to your course leader with these arguments then maybe they could supply boots.:huh: This could get nasty. Recenltly did some work for Railtrack. One of it's employees/subcontractors turned up for work while we were on site at Euston Station. This fella was probably in his late 40's, but he was sent home, docked a days wages for not turning up to site with his Steel capped boots. The site safety manager did say to him "oh come on Dave you've been doing this for 20 years now so you know the score" The same could be applied to a student arriving on stage without the correct equipment? All this discussion about a pair of boots!!! :huh: :) Scottish educational establishment do a great many other things differently, and often better than places in England - but I do not see how providing a pair of boots to its students has much to do about anything. If nothing esle if puts the emphasis on the student to think about looking after their kit, tools and equipment including safety gear. Duty of care must include ensuring students who turn up to work without the appropriate boots are asked to leave the stage. In some circumstances wearing the big lumpy things is quite a hazard to say climing up and down a tallescope or ladder ( if someone says ANYTHING ABOUT RISK ASSESSMENTs I will personally come around with STEAL Boots and aim for the chins) Let CSSD buy boots for its students - and then put £40 ontop of their course fees. It all comes out of the same pocket at the end of the day. :** laughs out loud **: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Just to reply to Colin, no, I don't think it's common sense. When I first joined Central I knew VERY little about professional theatre and its protocols. Now maybe that says something about my lack of knowledge, but I don't think it's unreasonable to presume that some 18 year-olds beginning a Theatre Practice degree will never have heard of steelies. I was lucky that I knew a 3rd year who took me shopping for my equipment. At this moment in time, I can't imagine ever not knowing steelies existed, but I've learnt so much this year, that that could be applied to all manner of things!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 I have to back up rachel here, there is nott always the background in theatre to tell people that steelies are needed. Let CSSD buy boots for its students - and then put £40 ontop of their course fees. It all comes out of the same pocket at the end of the day. cant do that uni fees are set by govrnment and cannot be added to by the institute University students are supplied a reading list, they are not forced to Buy the books. I'm sure that Central has a library. If you read a book that you like then you are within your rights to go and buy it, but you are not forced to buy books. this depends on the course, some say that you must own a copy of the books, and they are within their rights to do so. ...In some circumstances wearing the big lumpy things is quite a hazard to say climing up and down a tallescope or ladder... dont get me started on that one as rachel may remember I had a bit of an argument about that one where I said that a day runnun up and down scaff towers while rigging a scaff structure from the air it was better for me to wear shes that gave me better grip and manoverability rather than ones that protect my toes... I ended up leavign the space as the tech stage student was unable to grasp the concept that steelies are not always the best thing for climbing alot it, and that there was a difference to being in the air to being on the floor. :huh: all in all yes it would be great if they provided the boots but its not going to happen, I will have a look to see if there is any documentation on if they have to but I think that there wont be :** laughs out loud **: in the same way as we are entitled to have wednesday afternoons off as its "sports" time but that doesnt happen either, though that one may become a bit of a fight soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmonk Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Im sorry, but joining a degree course in production, you should have some experience in the industry you are about to spend three years studying for. And maybe its just me but scenario, work shoes for a theatre (where I will be working) moving heavy and or big items of scenery, or truss or motors or large flightcases - yes I'll where sandles cos that will work?!?! Sorry but if you are thinking, im asked to buy work shoes, to work in a theatre, moving large heavy objects, then most people would work out, Steelies, or at least contact the uni and find out further info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 not at all, I know of lots of work shoes that are not steel capped, but are used fro jobs where this is fine, and no not everyone going into the degree should have experiance in theatres before hand, thats a very narrow minded view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmonk Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Not specifically in theatre, but a student joining a production course should have some experience of the industry they are about to start a career in when they sign up. You must be quite serious about a career to join a degree course, or why waste 3years on something you may not enjoy. Yeah - work shoes for an office - normal shoesWork shoes for a production technician - Steel Toes... Its about the environment you are working in, its your personal protection, not anybody elses, so buy something you think will be safe - if your not sure, ask someone that knows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Im sorry, but joining a degree course in production, you should have some experience in the industry you are about to spend three years studying for.Not everyone will have had the luxury to juggle school or college, amateur theatre commitments and a small cassie job at their local recieving house, plus possibly a job at their local Sainsburys... With the best will in the world, working in amateur productions doesn't give the same level of experience a professional job would, and while you may know how to rig a lantern or build steeldeck, your unlikely to know the best way to do it, and the best tools to do it with, unless your lucky to have an ex-professional working in the ranks. As mentioned by Ben (I think) it would be very narrow minded to brand everyone as being knowledgeable in everything before they put foot into uni etc. (I did all but the cassie job, and therefore had alot to learn on my first pro show!) Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmonk Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Fair enough Stu,but if prospective students are unsure of what to buy as work shoes, then they could ask the uni, also you are probably unlikely to need them for the first week of uni so could ask when you get there... Although being branded as narrow minded is a slight unfair, as I didnt say should have worked in theatre in a professional capacity. To say that not everyone would have stepped into a theatre, (either) before they enter a degree course on production is what I was argueing against Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Fair ponts there Colin - I'm certainly not trying to brand anyone on here, so I didn't mean to put narrow mindedness in quite the way I did, but I suppose we have to look at the larger picture that not everyone will know everything they need to - hence uni! Agree to disagree eh! Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 sorry colin, I just read back my last post and I didnt mean to call you narrow minded in the way that it reads. I meant that the view is narrow minded for the reasons that stu states above, when we started we on the production LX strand at central last year were lucky enought to have had a lot of experiance and were on a preytty even par with everyone else but some people on other strands had alot of experiance and some had only done the odd school show, and had never been into a theatre other than in an audiance capacity. its not obvious that they need to be steelies as the list says sturdy workign shoes and you cna get shoes or bootsw that are the same as steelies withouth the cap over the toes, and for some jobs in the construction trade they are perfectly fine. they are similer to bikers boots or DMs anyway no offence was intended by my last post and I hope none was taken Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ripley Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Dear All Re RSAMD and supplying PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) As the person who has to buy all this clobber for the students I would make the following comments 1 Health and safety Legislation is UK wide and this is therefore not a 'funny Scottish' thing 2 As Kevin quoted above the training establishment/student relationship is exactly the same as that of Employer/Employee regarding H&S 3 If any establishment needs a member of staff or in this case student to undertake work that via a Risk assessment has been identified as requiring PPE, then they must supply it 4 The Emplyer has a duty of care to provide equipment. Failing to do so leaves them open to legal action if there is an accident or injury arising because PPE was not provided 5 Contrarily if PPE is provided the Employee has a duty to use it or be disciplined for not using it or using it incorrectly. they can also refuse to undertake a task if the PPE has not been provided 6 Yes the students keep the Steelies, respirator and gloves after graduating - what am I gonna do with them Hope that's clear! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 STEEL TOE CAPPED BOOTS!!!! In my day we had to glue two dead students to our feet in order to protect them from the bump n' grind of theatrical life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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